To an extent, the notion of Individualism within US culture will take care itself, or perhaps better to call it the mythologizing of individualism. We are so dedicated to it that we don't even realize that the line "to thine own self be true," was delivered in Hamlet by a blowhard who is promptly murdered in the next Act while hiding behind a curtain, and we take the line as a mantra. Of course, while most Americans idolize individualism the trend more and more is to sublimate oneself into the notion of identity, which has some sort of vague notion of a collective identity. All the while remaining devoted to the myth of individualism.
But when it comes to approaching the Bible it is important to remember that it is a text that was built to be read in community.
Yes, you are definitely right in pointing out that the rise of collective identity in the US has done nothing to reduce Americans’ devotion to individualism.
I just worry that those who speak out against individualism rarely seem to acknowledge any of its virtues. We should not throw the baby out with the bathwater
I think there is a difference between declining to set maximizing individuals' opportunities to explore and express themselves as the highest metric of the Church and "throwing out individualism."
If I can be so bold to speak for Anne, when she says that the Church, family, and community tell us our roles, it is more about not reinventing the wheel and having general norms for orienting oneself than about meekly submitting to central planning or the patriarchy. There is freedom and security in norms, many of which were established in response to practical needs of communities and churches. I see so many young people litigating every detail of their marriages and being exhausted and misunderstood. They are having to figure everything out without the supports and models of successful marriages.
This also extends to young, hip, churches reinventing how a church body functions, not taking advantage of the wisdom and examples of earlier churches. (I write this as someone who has attended an independent church with no denominational affiliation since the mid 1980s. Our church has experienced many challenges which arose from its "newness.") People like to know how they fit in when they join a new group.
It sounds like what you are getting at is the importance of standing on the shoulders of giants. I am 100% with you there. That’s actually part of why I love the prayer book so much. Why start from scratch when we can borrow from those that went before us?
I guess there’s just still a part of me that’s enamoured with the idea of individualism—with the mythos of the hero who achieves great things against all odds through sheer force of will and determination. I think there is beauty in being allowed to chart one’s path for oneself, although culture often takes that too far.
Should our response be to abandon this ideal altogether though? I don’t think so. And should respect for individual freedoms necessarily be understood in opposition to the importance of standing on the shoulders of giants? I don’t think so either
Jesus calls us to fully realize our uniqueness in him. It is through the rejection of my will and my receptivity to God that the dross is driven out and "a vessel worthy of the smith" is prepared. We echo Paul's words from Philippians 3, counting all our "spiritual cred" as loss in light of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus. It is bold. It is emptying oneself out to be filled to overflowing. It is losing one's life to find it. It is the way of the Cross.
I mean. There's a bit of an irony in the whole situation in that one displays individuality in America by speaking out against it. And Anne and her husband are both deeply idiosyncratic in light of modern social norms, so to an extent, insisting on a sense of communal thought within modern America is peak individualism. I guess a deeper discussion would be to suss out the positives of individualism. Don't get me wrong, I'm the great grandson of homesteaders up along the highline in northern Montana. Individualism is in my DNA and part of my family's story (I mean, the rugged homesteader against all of the wind and elements in northern Montana doesn't get more on the nose). But. Yes. I agree with you that the notion of the individual pushing back against social norms due to personal conviction is an important and needed aspect of individualism that needs to be protected.
I have been turning over in my mind what I see as the false dichotomy of "egalitarian" vs "complementarian" as put forth by Gregoire and discussed by Kennedy. Thank you for adding your insights and perspective.
In the universal sense, all followers of Christ are complementary. We are members of one Body with Christ as its Head, fitted together by the Holy Spirit (Romans 12). I will not rehash Paul's foot vs hand illustration, but it is important for each of us to walk in the good works he designed for each of us without denigrating or vaunting our place in the Body.
Silencing others because of their sex, ethnicity, background, age is a universal, sinful inclination and practice.While the powerful have been men for the supermajority of time, I have witnessed too many women tell men their opinions and desires are irrelevant, to say otherwise.
I love Anne's writing! I appreciate your critiques here, but I wonder if the flaws which you have discovered aren't really due to the form in which she is writing. If she were to include every qualification and nuance, she would end up writing a book. I'm more Germanic in my approach to argument, so I appreciate someone who is willing to lay out a strongly worded statement and to leave the qualifications and nuances to the reader. Hey, we'll have to talk about the whole egalitarian debate sometime!
To an extent, the notion of Individualism within US culture will take care itself, or perhaps better to call it the mythologizing of individualism. We are so dedicated to it that we don't even realize that the line "to thine own self be true," was delivered in Hamlet by a blowhard who is promptly murdered in the next Act while hiding behind a curtain, and we take the line as a mantra. Of course, while most Americans idolize individualism the trend more and more is to sublimate oneself into the notion of identity, which has some sort of vague notion of a collective identity. All the while remaining devoted to the myth of individualism.
But when it comes to approaching the Bible it is important to remember that it is a text that was built to be read in community.
Yes, you are definitely right in pointing out that the rise of collective identity in the US has done nothing to reduce Americans’ devotion to individualism.
I just worry that those who speak out against individualism rarely seem to acknowledge any of its virtues. We should not throw the baby out with the bathwater
I think there is a difference between declining to set maximizing individuals' opportunities to explore and express themselves as the highest metric of the Church and "throwing out individualism."
If I can be so bold to speak for Anne, when she says that the Church, family, and community tell us our roles, it is more about not reinventing the wheel and having general norms for orienting oneself than about meekly submitting to central planning or the patriarchy. There is freedom and security in norms, many of which were established in response to practical needs of communities and churches. I see so many young people litigating every detail of their marriages and being exhausted and misunderstood. They are having to figure everything out without the supports and models of successful marriages.
This also extends to young, hip, churches reinventing how a church body functions, not taking advantage of the wisdom and examples of earlier churches. (I write this as someone who has attended an independent church with no denominational affiliation since the mid 1980s. Our church has experienced many challenges which arose from its "newness.") People like to know how they fit in when they join a new group.
It sounds like what you are getting at is the importance of standing on the shoulders of giants. I am 100% with you there. That’s actually part of why I love the prayer book so much. Why start from scratch when we can borrow from those that went before us?
I guess there’s just still a part of me that’s enamoured with the idea of individualism—with the mythos of the hero who achieves great things against all odds through sheer force of will and determination. I think there is beauty in being allowed to chart one’s path for oneself, although culture often takes that too far.
Should our response be to abandon this ideal altogether though? I don’t think so. And should respect for individual freedoms necessarily be understood in opposition to the importance of standing on the shoulders of giants? I don’t think so either
Jesus calls us to fully realize our uniqueness in him. It is through the rejection of my will and my receptivity to God that the dross is driven out and "a vessel worthy of the smith" is prepared. We echo Paul's words from Philippians 3, counting all our "spiritual cred" as loss in light of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus. It is bold. It is emptying oneself out to be filled to overflowing. It is losing one's life to find it. It is the way of the Cross.
I mean. There's a bit of an irony in the whole situation in that one displays individuality in America by speaking out against it. And Anne and her husband are both deeply idiosyncratic in light of modern social norms, so to an extent, insisting on a sense of communal thought within modern America is peak individualism. I guess a deeper discussion would be to suss out the positives of individualism. Don't get me wrong, I'm the great grandson of homesteaders up along the highline in northern Montana. Individualism is in my DNA and part of my family's story (I mean, the rugged homesteader against all of the wind and elements in northern Montana doesn't get more on the nose). But. Yes. I agree with you that the notion of the individual pushing back against social norms due to personal conviction is an important and needed aspect of individualism that needs to be protected.
For sure. And I do appreciate your Hamlet point at the same time! Forgot to mention that earlier
I have been turning over in my mind what I see as the false dichotomy of "egalitarian" vs "complementarian" as put forth by Gregoire and discussed by Kennedy. Thank you for adding your insights and perspective.
In the universal sense, all followers of Christ are complementary. We are members of one Body with Christ as its Head, fitted together by the Holy Spirit (Romans 12). I will not rehash Paul's foot vs hand illustration, but it is important for each of us to walk in the good works he designed for each of us without denigrating or vaunting our place in the Body.
Silencing others because of their sex, ethnicity, background, age is a universal, sinful inclination and practice.While the powerful have been men for the supermajority of time, I have witnessed too many women tell men their opinions and desires are irrelevant, to say otherwise.
All followers of Christ are indeed complementary! Definitely a worthwhile point to consider.
And to your final comment, the “gender wars” really are stupid. As entertaining as they can be
I love Anne's writing! I appreciate your critiques here, but I wonder if the flaws which you have discovered aren't really due to the form in which she is writing. If she were to include every qualification and nuance, she would end up writing a book. I'm more Germanic in my approach to argument, so I appreciate someone who is willing to lay out a strongly worded statement and to leave the qualifications and nuances to the reader. Hey, we'll have to talk about the whole egalitarian debate sometime!
I’ve never heard of Germanic argumentation before. Very interesting. We should talk about that too when we discuss egalitarianism.
I’ll make sure to catch you at church tomorrow!